tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post6558458307278341720..comments2023-07-08T14:04:20.047-05:00Comments on La Vie Catholique - The Catholic Life: The Early Church and the Eucharist - CoC vs. CatholicStephaniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-8847788804396339122007-11-06T13:52:00.000-06:002007-11-06T13:52:00.000-06:00I wasn't aware of that verse, Ken, thanks for poin...I wasn't aware of that verse, Ken, thanks for pointing it out!Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-44917387047540223502007-11-05T23:01:00.000-06:002007-11-05T23:01:00.000-06:00Stephanie,Good post and rebuttal, especially your ...Stephanie,<BR/><BR/>Good post and rebuttal, especially your quotes of St. Ireneus. The quotes you provided show that the central differance between the apostolic Eucharist and the CoC "Lord's Supper" is that the Eucharist is an <I>offering to God</I>. It shows that the Catholic Church has held to the apostolic teaching "whether by epistle or word of mouth."<BR/><BR/>With regards to argument that "it can't be a sacrifice because it's a memorial" one only has to read Leviticus 2 which declares that the grain offering is simultaneously a memorial and THE MOST HOLY OF SACRFICES. This is especially evident in the Septuagint translation.<BR/><BR/>KenKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05218434053331256206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-77860212132446407322007-11-05T14:01:00.000-06:002007-11-05T14:01:00.000-06:00Thanks for your input, Elizabeth! Great stuff from...Thanks for your input, Elizabeth! Great stuff from St. Ambrose!<BR/><BR/>jdavidb, good questions! Sara pretty much summed up the answers.<BR/><BR/>If you were to ask Catholics to pinpoint one doctrine that was absolutely central to their faith, it would be the Eucharist hands down. This is a divinely revealed truth, the most important doctrine, the most Blessed Sacrament, the height and pinnacle of every mass. So why are we so dogmatic about it? Because it is SO VERY important, SO VERY central to the Catholic faith!! We believe that Christ told his disciples repeatedly "This IS my body," and when some couldn't handle it and walked away, he didn't stop them and say "But it's ok if you don't want to believe that...." and nor do we. It is the core of our faith, so yes indeed we are dogmatic about it! It's up there with believing Christ died on the cross, that's not something as a Christian that you can just agree to disagree on, it's at the heart of what it means to be Christian.<BR/><BR/><I>With what justification does the Catholic Church claim that transubstantiation does not occur during the Lord's Supper of other Christians?</I><BR/><BR/>A very important question indeed!<BR/><BR/>To answer it in depth you have to understand the importance of apostolic succession, as well as what it takes to be able to procure a valid sacrament. A sacrament doesn't happen on accident, it must be intentionally done with the proper form and matter.<BR/><BR/>In the case of the Eucharist, the requirements for validity are very simple and can be dealt with under the headings of minister, intent, matter, and form.<BR/><BR/>There must be a validly ordained minister, whose intent is to perform the consecration, using the proper matter (wheat bread and grape wine), and the proper form (the words used at the consecration, i.e. - "Take this all of you and eat it. This is my Body, which will be given up for you,").<BR/><BR/>Now, even if the CoC and other bible-based Christian groups had the proper form and said the Eucharistic prayers, and had the proper intent to actually bring about a change in the communion species, and the proper matter (and the grape juice used is questionable), they would still be lacking the necessity of a validly ordained minister. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you about the Holy Spirit...but the procurement of sacraments is slightly different. Whether the Holy Spirit indwells in us, more precisely in our souls, is pretty much kept on the spiritual side of things. A sacrament has to do with using physical means to receive some kind of spiritual grace. The Eucharist especially is the ultimate combination of physical and spiritual...thus, some physical requirements are absolutely necessary, and one of those, we believe, is a validly ordained priest, which is why apostolic succession is so important.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-34592585543483003862007-11-05T14:00:00.000-06:002007-11-05T14:00:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-68209275536396275972007-11-05T09:56:00.000-06:002007-11-05T09:56:00.000-06:00JDavidBThe Catholic church is dogmatic about subst...JDavidB<BR/><BR/>The Catholic church is dogmatic about substantiation because we believe Christ meant what he said when he said "This IS my body..." and "This IS my blood..."<BR/><BR/>Why don't other groups have a valid Eucharist? Only those groups who can trace their authority back to the apostles have a valid Eucharist. Hence the reason the churh is "apostolic."<BR/><BR/>SaraAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-80937403684431371002007-11-05T09:46:00.000-06:002007-11-05T09:46:00.000-06:00Hello, jdavidb,I want to apologize for pride among...Hello, jdavidb,<BR/>I want to apologize for pride amongst Catholics. To receive Our Lord in Holy Communion is a grace. There is nothing we have done to deserve it. Priests who celebrate Mass are not "able" to consecrate the Eucharist through any human ability of their own. It is a divine grace conferred through Ordination. The graces conferred at Ordination are part of an unbroken succession- Apostolic Succession- that can be traced all the way back to St. Peter, and this is simply the means Our Lord chose to manifest Himself among us. <BR/><BR/>That Holy Communion is an Objective Grace, not subjective, is a Biblical teaching. We know that Our Lord did not choose "just anyone" to lead His people throughout salvation history, but specifically set apart Abraham, Moses, etc. All the miracles, the parting of the Red Sea, the water from the rock, the changing of the rod into a serpent-- occured through the WORDS of BENEDICTION that He gave to the particular leader He chose. In a fuller sense, He continued this objective blessing through words of benediction through His Son, and His Son likewise passed along this grace to His apostles, who continued this grace through the Church, and the succession of apostles continues today! <BR/><BR/>It is, and has always been, the Church's business to protect her traditions and the teaching of Scripture from heresy- EVEN if it's just a tiny little thing. That Jesus Christ deigns to live amongst us under the appearance of bread is one of the most precious realities that Our Lord granted the Church. This must be protected at all costs, for it is not a teaching that BELONGS to us. It is a gift that has been given to us, and like all treasures, we must protect it, and be good stewards of it. Unfortunately, it is a historical fact that Luther broke away from this teaching, and instead adopted the doctrine of consubstantiation. How devastating it is that modern Protestants have inherited this component of faith- that to be a Protestant is by definition to "protest" against the tradition of the Church instituted by Christ, as revealed in the Scriptures. There is a richness, depth, mystery, and beauty in the Catholic Church that is only in skeletal form in Protestant Churches. It is devastating, but it is a fact. The Scriptures are unapologetic and quite clear when it comes to the Eucharist, especially in John 6. <BR/> <BR/>You might look into the Catechism to clarify exactly what the Catholic Church teaches on the Eucharist, Apostolic Succession, Holy Orders, etc. My words are proving inadequate, and I hope I didn't come across in a negative way, because I sincerely hope you may understand with clarity the teachings of the Catholic Church. I know that many Protestant communities are vibrant with the presence of the Holy Spirit and I thank you as your sister in Christ for asking meaningful questions about the faith. The search for truth is the most noble quest humans can embark on, for our ability to reason is the Imago Dei, or image of God, revealed in us. God bless you!e lemmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10364214165967076220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-33518973576280807072007-11-05T06:40:00.000-06:002007-11-05T06:40:00.000-06:00Maybe you can answer two of my questions:* Why mus...Maybe you can answer two of my questions:<BR/><BR/>* Why must the Catholic Church be dogmatic about transubstantiation, i.e., why does it not allow for its members to harmoniously hold different opinions on the subject?<BR/><BR/>* With what justification does the Catholic Church claim that transubstantiation does not occur during the Lord's Supper of other Christians? No, seriously: I've believed and taught for over a decade that even though some Christians believe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is figurative and not literal, that they are nevertheless still literally indwelt by the Holy Spirit who I understand literally indwells Christians (along with the Father and Son, as well, according to the Gospel of John). Their lack of understanding does not mean that they do not have the Holy Spirit. (I knew some people who were very pompous and prideful because they thought they were nearly the only ones who believed the indwelling was literal, and thus that they were nearly the only ones to have the Holy Spirit. :( ) If I were to come to conclude that the Lord's Supper were literal, I would simply conclude that all along I had been consuming the actual body and blood of Christ, not mere bread and wine. It wouldn't cause me to spontaneously decide that only some Christians with special knowledge and special authority were permitted to observe a correct Lord's Supper.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-29909331521179117702007-11-05T00:04:00.000-06:002007-11-05T00:04:00.000-06:00Hello, fellow convert!! Thank you for your post! S...Hello, fellow convert!! Thank you for your post! St. Ambrose's writings from the 4th century are especially compelling when it comes to Transubstantiation (I might post the excerpt, or a link to it, on my blog). It is from an address he made to the newly baptized, exhorting them to endure in the faith. <BR/><BR/>In the chapter "Mysteries" he specifically addresses his newly baptized who are having doubts, such as 'I see something else; how do you tell me that I receive the Body of Christ?' In response, he says "[We shall prove] that this is not what nature formed but what benediction consecrated, and that the power of benediction is greater than that of nature, because even nature itself is changed by benediction."<BR/><BR/>He goes on to use a myriad examples from the Old Testament to show this power of benediction through Moses. "But if the benediction of man had such power as to change nature, what do we say of divine consecration itself, in which the very words of our Lord and Saviour function? For that sacrament, which you receive, is effected by the words of Christ." <BR/><BR/>Then he continues with the example of Mary, basically pulling out all the stops, and then continues with a beautiful illustration of the Church as the Bride of Christ being fed on the sacraments, quoting from Song of Songs: "Arise, O northwind, and come, O southwind, blow through my garden and let my ointments flow down. Let my brother go down into his garden and eat the fruit of his apple-trees." He continues with quotes from Acts, the Psalms, and everywhere else. I highly recommend. :)e lemmehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10364214165967076220noreply@blogger.com