tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post4954757132630347363..comments2023-07-08T14:04:20.047-05:00Comments on La Vie Catholique - The Catholic Life: Why Didn't They Rewrite the Bible?Stephaniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-20202001201459251662007-03-26T09:40:00.000-05:002007-03-26T09:40:00.000-05:00So true!So true!Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-42245351861661736732007-03-26T08:54:00.000-05:002007-03-26T08:54:00.000-05:00Hi there StephanieI've really enjoyed reading my w...Hi there Stephanie<BR/><BR/>I've really enjoyed reading my way through your blog. I lecture in Scripture down here in Australia so this post caught my eye and I just <I>had</I> to respond. :) <BR/><BR/>Our friend with the question <B> why didn't the Catholics re-write the Bible to coincide with their teachings and beliefs? </B> won't have to look too far to find some academics who have carefully constructed arguments which they suggest prove that Catholics <I> did</I> re-write (or at least add to) the Scriptures to suit their beliefs. Article after article in professional journals of Scripture scholars cross my desk, each claiming to 'prove' that Catholic ideas about same sex acts, contraception, abortion, divorce and so on are later Catholic additions/interpretations of earlier Scripture. Our friend posing the question is unlikely to seek out these sources however, since the majority of them are Catholic Scripture scholars.<BR/><BR/>Try and publish an article supporting the Church's teaching, however, and all sorts of hell breaks loose.<BR/><BR/>Peter Holmes<BR/>http://cumgranosalis70.blogspot.com/Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15189580002644810418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-1365152770936066352007-02-13T21:35:00.000-06:002007-02-13T21:35:00.000-06:00Until the change from the Latin mass, wasn't this ...Until the change from the Latin mass, wasn't this still the reason for having mass in Latin (aside from tradition, of course) - that anyone visiting anywhere around the world would know what was happening? Yes, it would be easier for the *locals* to understand mass in the vernacular, but the Roman empire had a fair amount of trade and travel (and thus the growing church), so using Latin would have been more for the sake of unification than elitism. In my uneducated opinion, anyhow. :)<BR/><BR/>I don't claim to be educated in church history, nor in western history in general, really. Those are just my thoughts.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-62894549919710748512007-02-12T21:26:00.000-06:002007-02-12T21:26:00.000-06:00Well...not incidentally at all. "....Latin was a u...Well...not incidentally at all.<BR/><BR/> "....Latin was a unifying thing that was to help PROMOTE understanding."<BR/><BR/>From what you say....Did the early church fathers DELIBERATELY use language the common folks would all understand so they could better conprehend the New Testament teachings? <BR/><BR/>I've never seen this viewpoint. I've only seen the sinister viewpoint....i.e. Catholic fathers were coniving to absolutely control the people. <BR/><BR/>Very interesting.<BR/><BR/>I really would like to see a CoC person with a solid academic background in history discuss these issues....and do so without a shrill, defensive debate attitude.<BR/><BR/>I'm not holding my breath.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465293911903205587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-867913350976864022007-02-12T19:51:00.000-06:002007-02-12T19:51:00.000-06:00Incidentally, Doug, one of the things they forget ...Incidentally, Doug, one of the things they forget is that Latin was a univerrsal language of the empire, and that by sticking with Latin, anyone traveling anywhere would recognize what was going on (as the local vernacular in any area changed). So the fact that they were using Latin was a unifying thing that was to help PROMOTE understanding, not keep the poor misled masses in the dark. <BR/><BR/>If they wanted to keep things elitist, they could've used the original languages of the scriptures.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-19439454623478330272007-02-11T23:00:00.000-06:002007-02-11T23:00:00.000-06:00I totally agree, Doug, and while I do think the sm...I totally agree, Doug, and while I do think the smugness is worldwide, I think it is especially prevalent in America (where it just so happens that Protestantism thrives).Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-17423761844394471312007-02-11T22:48:00.000-06:002007-02-11T22:48:00.000-06:00OK...last comment and I'm gone.Stephanie said-"A l...OK...last comment and I'm gone.<BR/><BR/>Stephanie said-<BR/>"A lot of times, I think people don't give enough credit to those who lived before us, and think they were poor ignorant fools."<BR/><BR/>I cannot pass this up. We, in the 21st century are very smug about our high tech. "stuff." I suggest wandering through Europe (or other places throughout the world) and actually see...in person...what was done 1,000 years ago. I have.. and it blows my mind away. These people had every bit the smarts of a "Bill Gates" within the limitations of knowledge at that time. Walk along the "Pont du Gard" in Provence, France or wander through the Colliseum in Rome and it hits you with a sledge hammer....well it did to me anyway.<BR/><BR/>21st century folks need to take a careful look at their long-ago, ancestors.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465293911903205587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-43562740182393695452007-02-11T22:31:00.000-06:002007-02-11T22:31:00.000-06:00I'm having a little computer trouble here. mochado...I'm having a little computer trouble here. <BR/><BR/>mochadog and Doug are the same.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465293911903205587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-4922842235561582422007-02-11T22:29:00.000-06:002007-02-11T22:29:00.000-06:00I have seen WAY too many people make assumptions w...I have seen WAY too many people make assumptions with no basis in fact...at all! ....like in the CoC comment above. I will do some research on the decay of Latin and how it affected the common people. I have traveled through Europe a number of times and listened....carefully....to the differences of langage. It is not as much as people think. My younger son speaks spanish and was quite able to converse (simply, of course) with people in Italy...no problem. So....it is hard for me to believe that people in 600 c.e. (or pick your pre-1000 c.e.date) were suddenly and completely unable to comprehend anything the priest said in Latin. I mean.....come on already....Jeez!<BR/><BR/>AND....let us not forget that Latin was the absolute language used in all of European academia until well into the second millenia. The Latin Quarter of Paris does NOT have reference to South America!!! The Sorbonne is in the absolute center of it. I have walked through it three times over the years. Latin did not suddenly die when the Roman empire collapsed.<BR/><BR/>I think the CoC had better get some real scholastic help before they make such assertions....or just read a little bit of European history!<BR/><BR/>OK...Soap box OFF. <BR/><BR/>Off subject: I am having trouble posting a comment to Kate. I wil keep trying.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465293911903205587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-61291039949840052402007-02-10T23:11:00.000-06:002007-02-10T23:11:00.000-06:00Exactly, Doug, it wasn't about keeping people from...Exactly, Doug, it wasn't about keeping people from reading the bible, books in general were a luxury!<BR/><BR/>And about the Latin, people always assume that no one could understand Latin, but that's just silly. When you are exposed to it week after week, you just pick it up! (I know I have!) And even more so in times past when it was so widely used and taught. A lot of times, I think people don't give enough credit to those who lived before us, and think they were poor ignorant fools, when really we're probably worse off (as far as knowing Latin) than they were, lol!Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-10542760503891920202007-02-10T11:01:00.000-06:002007-02-10T11:01:00.000-06:00Hehe...don't you love those comments? "Repent befo...Hehe...don't you love those comments? "Repent before it is everlastingly too late!!!!! - In Christian Love" lol.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-20745682781247313012007-02-10T08:17:00.000-06:002007-02-10T08:17:00.000-06:00"And again, if a Catholic appeals to history he is..."And again, if a Catholic appeals to history he is often told the only history he needs is in the bible, and it doesn't matter what history says or what the background was if it's not in the Bible. But again, I guess this only applies to non-CoC members."<BR/><BR/>Yep. And it is totally, totally illogical.<BR/><BR/>I am glad you are posting occasionally over there. We are glad for the help.<BR/><BR/>Wonder when I will be told (again) that I am going to hell?katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01599292890685738699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-71080305063925518582007-02-09T09:23:00.000-06:002007-02-09T09:23:00.000-06:00Yes, that's exactly it, Thomas! And I do realize t...Yes, that's exactly it, Thomas! And I do realize that, which is why I don't stick around for too long, I know no amount of arguing is going to convince them unless they're actually willing to listen and consider other viewpoints.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-11007886847615585822007-02-09T06:44:00.000-06:002007-02-09T06:44:00.000-06:00I sound like your husband? Actually, i do. . .i w...I sound like your husband? Actually, i do. . .i wrote the entire post with a French accent. ..didn't you hear it?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Actually, no, I understand, and as someone who has had a share of conversations and on line dialogue with Protestant Fudnamentalists, i know where you are coming from.<BR/><BR/>I just want to make sure that you realize that where you are coming from is relatively sound and reasonable (as far as religious thought goes, the skeptic in me needs to add), and from a logical standpoint, makes much more sense that the old c of C diatribe. However, remember that said diatribe is an ideology, and ideologies frequently defy reason and logic. The frustrating thing about it is that they won't play by their own rules. they invoke Logic and Reason as their credo, but then it escapes them when put to the test, and they must rely on the very blind faith that they criticize others for.<BR/><BR/>For me, it is not the lack of reason that annoys me (although it is why I reject their doctrine), it is this very hypocrisy. . .to demand logic, reason, and "proof" from others, while relying on blind faith for themselves.Thomas J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14073497592486545386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-6045043767679168972007-02-08T23:24:00.000-06:002007-02-08T23:24:00.000-06:00Good strategy!!Good strategy!!Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-13432421127776451132007-02-08T23:20:00.000-06:002007-02-08T23:20:00.000-06:00I consider myself to have gotten my point across, ...I consider myself to have gotten my point across, as he did admit that 1. There may well be inspired writings that are not in canon and 2. Sounding weird may just be a matter of our not being used to it being in there - that some accepted Protestant canon would sound weird also if it had been booted back during the Reformation and we were to run into it today.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't trying to get him to admit that Catholic canon is The Authoritative Scripture - just that we can't really know for certain that what we have Is It, and that the Reformists may have been on shaky ground.<BR/><BR/>Little steps.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-21279886265149497142007-02-08T23:13:00.000-06:002007-02-08T23:13:00.000-06:00So Cheryl, how do you keep from pounding your head...So Cheryl, how do you keep from pounding your head against a wall? lolStephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-89968454797805244442007-02-08T23:12:00.000-06:002007-02-08T23:12:00.000-06:00Thomas, you sound like my husband ;-) He's always ...Thomas, you sound like my husband ;-) He's always asking me, "Why do you waste your time?" (I mean, he supports me in anything that I have a passion for, he just doesn't always understand why I do it!)<BR/><BR/>I honestly don't expect people (especially PFers) to change their mind. But, I am a hopeless and eternal optimist, always hoping against hope that someone out there (possibly lurkers?) may get something out of what I say, or at least see the inconsistencies in what they say. And honestly, one of the reasons that I still am baffled by some of the attitudes, even though I grew up in the CoC, is because as far as I can tell, I was only that way until it was pointed out to me...as soon as I saw the inconsistencies in my beliefs for the first time, I felt I had no choice but to admit them, even considering the price I knew would come with it. I mean, it was never an option in my head not to go with truth. So, I am admittedly baffled by those who would rather cling to obvious untruths than admit they might be mistaken. It pretty much always catches me by surprise, no matter how many times I see it! <BR/><BR/>But mostly, I just need to get my thoughts out of my head to be able to reflect on them, to try and understand myself and others better. It's just how my brain works! =)Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-37547240201370104182007-02-08T22:41:00.000-06:002007-02-08T22:41:00.000-06:00Discussion with my FIL about canon (this evening, ...Discussion with my FIL about canon (this evening, coming home from a Bible study):<BR/><BR/>Me: Given verses like "All scripture is useful...", and the fact that that was in there *before* the Reformation, what grounds did the Reformists have to dump some books that could not be similarly claimed today to dump other scripture?<BR/><BR/>FIL: We have what we need to know how to obtain salvation.<BR/><BR/>Me: Admittedly. But why couldn't someone today go and trash several books of the Bible on the same authority claimed by the Reformists?<BR/><BR/>FIL: They threw out what didn't seem to "fit". Have you read some of those books?<BR/><BR/>Me: Yep. But does it not seem to "fit" to us because it truly doesn't, or just because we're not used to seeing it in there? Let's face it, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, and Job are kinda bizarre - I mean, Job starts out with God and Satan talking and seemingly making a bet (okay, not exactly) over what Job will do. Wouldn't those sound weird if we weren't used to seeing them as part of the Protestant canon?<BR/><BR/>FIL: If they weren't in there, they probably would. But God would make sure what we need for salvation is preserved...if you mean can we know that there aren't other inspired works left out of the Bible...we can't. But we have what is essential for salvation - we trust that God preserved that part.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-56371472322808659562007-02-08T18:30:00.000-06:002007-02-08T18:30:00.000-06:00well, one of the things that you fail to accept in...well, one of the things that you fail to accept in any of these discussions, and I, to be quite honest, am somewhat confused as to why you even pursue them:<BR/><BR/>There is no logic involved in Protestant Fundamentalism. Protestant Fundamentalism is, at it's core, dependent upon the authority of the Bible, but that Authority must be addressed and accepted without examining the ORIGINS of said Bible. <BR/><BR/>The more you try to address this sort of Doublethink with logic, the more you get these absolutely absurd non-answers. It is just like little kids sitting around listening to a apologetics from J.M. Barrie, clapping their hands a Tinkerbell nears death and saying "I DO believe in the Authority of the Bible I DO, I DO!"<BR/><BR/>You and I, being individuals who have left the c of C, and who know what sort of grief and loss that entails, should be able to understand their inability to reject the circular reasoning they use. . .for many, it is just too high of a price to pay.<BR/><BR/>As a skeptic and a non-Christian, I DO respect the Catholic church for at least that much. . .the emphasis being on the authority of the CHURCH completely negates the Protestant claims.Thomas J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14073497592486545386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-32780083118194706912007-02-08T17:32:00.000-06:002007-02-08T17:32:00.000-06:00Amen and amen, preach it sister! ;-DAmen and amen, preach it sister! ;-DStephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-26656559981525869162007-02-08T17:09:00.000-06:002007-02-08T17:09:00.000-06:00Okay, bearing in mind my argument is with the guy ...Okay, bearing in mind my argument is with the guy who was arguing with you (who probably doesn't read this blog):<BR/><BR/>Like the population at large would hve been able to afford and read the Bible if they HAD it then?<BR/><BR/>Not to mention how unreliable translations (once the printing press would have made them more available) may have been. I have one of the New Testament with commentary included (as footnotes) that really pushes Calvinistic interpretation (it's from very late 1800s, if I remember correctly). The days of fairly reliably accurate (and impartial) translations have been *very* recent indeed.<BR/><BR/>"This thousand year period would have been the perfect time frame to have re-written God's Word and thus appear to the world as consistent with God..."<BR/><BR/>But they obviously didn't. If they had, such passages as "call no man father" and the like would probably have been omitted. For people with opportunity, they sure didn't use it very well, KWIM?<BR/><BR/>"They could have written in whole chapters (indeed whole books) illustrating indulgencies, priests with robes,"<BR/><BR/>Umm...a whole lotta folks wore robes historically. Churches were not small warm cozy spaces. Same origin as the academic robes - and you still see the academic robes at graduation ceremonies. Gonna jump on them too?<BR/><BR/>"special collars"<BR/>Almost any institution of any kind needs a way to mark those who are more experienced or have authority. In a small 30 member church, yes, everyone knows who the deacons and elders are to go to them with the appropriate issues. In a large body, there had to be other ways - see also those distinctions on academic robes. Got a question for one of the instructors? Find a guy with a hood...We use clothing to distinguish male from female (well, clothing has traditionally done so, anyhow), we use it for identifying chain of command in the military (listen to the guy with the stripes - no time to inquire about who's in charge in the midst of battle), and even for such things as identifying the bride and groom in a wedding, for crying out loud. Does it mean that the general is looking to exalt himself? No, it means he needs to be easily distinguishable. Is this still necessary in the Catholic church? Perhaps not, but there's nothing wrong with it - it's traditional in the same sense as the above, and it also meshes with historical precedent of the priests in the OT. <BR/><BR/><BR/>"forbiding them to marry"<BR/>Roman Rite, yes - but if they thought that was a doctrinal requirement, they wouldn't allow Eastern Rite priests who are married to convert and remain priests. Paul himself thought remaining unmarried was a good idea, and said so. The same reasons still apply.<BR/><BR/>"instrumental music"<BR/>Show me where it's forbidden. Chapter and verse. The NT church, starting as it did, would not have had instruments for private worship - and they certainly weren't meeting in their own dedicated buildings at the time (at least not that we're told). Historically, Judaism supported instruments, and Revelations includes it as well. That wouldn't be the case if there were something intrinsically wrong about their use.<BR/><BR/>"and all the other major differences with their "style of Christianity" and true Christianity as God describes it in His Word."<BR/>Yep, tons of differences. Let's see...NT Christians are described as meeting for communion, singing, prayer, and exhortation (and perhaps collection as well, though some dispute whether that was actually done during the service). Sounds like mass to me. In fact, the mention many times is that they met "for the breaking of the bread", which would seem to me that communion was THE FOCUS of their worship. What's our focus? (Lengthy) Preaching, which is mostly shown in the NT as being a separate thing altogether - meetings teaching NON-CHRISTIANS about Jesus. Gospel meetings, if you will. Makes sense, since non-Christians wouldn't be taking communion - the focus isn't worship, it's teaching. And that looks all too much like what we now do for worship. Do we need to hear the Bible? Sure we do. And there's nothing wrong with exhortation (a homily). But when that's the focus, just what do we SEEM to be worshipping?Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-2173968991671069362007-02-08T16:56:00.000-06:002007-02-08T16:56:00.000-06:00Cheryl, feel free to post whatever you want, I alw...Cheryl, feel free to post whatever you want, I always enjoy reading your thoughts! =)Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14847605396658754483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-87687782385338385772007-02-08T15:05:00.000-06:002007-02-08T15:05:00.000-06:00Cheryl said... Martin, They'd probably say t...Cheryl said...<BR/><BR/> Martin,<BR/><BR/> They'd probably say that they purged those books (ones that the Catholic church should not have had in there) when they tossed them following the Reformation. Which then leads to the question of who the heck the Reformists thought they were, violating the "If anyone adds to or takes away from..." and "All scripture is profitable.." passages that today's Sola Scriptura followers hold so dear. And if they (today) claimed that they (those who did it) had divine guidance in doing so, what makes them so confident that someone else couldn't come along and throw out Paul's writings on the role of women, or James's writings on the need of works that demonstrate faith, or any number of other passages that people take issue with today? What would make that person wrong where the other was correct?<BR/><BR/> If you can start shaking their hold on the Protestant canon as being The Ultimate And Only Truth, they can get uneasy reeeeeally quickly.<BR/><BR/> (Note: I am in no way saying scripture isn't important, or is equivalent to any other book in a library, etc.)Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32523001.post-11506085024621343102007-02-08T15:04:00.000-06:002007-02-08T15:04:00.000-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01339508612447772849noreply@blogger.com